FCL - General Discussion
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15:55 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
Put this here so BS thread isn't filled with negativity.
Well done on Div 2 but in my mind i don't class as a trophy but 5th place the three clans above you didn't win titles (well Uprising and Pros did but i mean in context of 2nd, 3rd, 4th in a single league) but would be more deserving as 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
May be different when split happens the scores reset but still have the same view.
Fifth wasn't in doubt though but if you stayed i don't think it would become easier as Revs and Pds are growing in talent and theres Knights who is always a threat but not quite there and the two obvious Pros and Uprising
Anyways Well done on Division Two
You have been great shad throughout the season matey. Agree with your post above and we deserve alot of credit for winning both leagues in Div 2.
Up the scorps!
Up the scorps!
Put this here so BS thread isn't filled with negativity.
Well done on Div 2 but in my mind i don't class as a trophy but 5th place the three clans above you didn't win titles (well Uprising and Pros did but i mean in context of 2nd, 3rd, 4th in a single league) but would be more deserving as 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
May be different when split happens the scores reset but still have the same view.
Fifth wasn't in doubt though but if you stayed i don't think it would become easier as Revs and Pds are growing in talent and theres Knights who is always a threat but not quite there and the two obvious Pros and Uprising
Anyways Well done on Division Two
16:04 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
I do agree we came 4th qualified to compete versus the other top teams and a team who didn't bragging about coming 5th.
I think the scores should be reset for all teams once the split is done. At the moment all the positions when the split has been carried out are more formalities than anything. There was no way any of the other teams in Div 2 were going to be able to catch Black Scorpions and the same with Fearless Knights with Pros or Uprising. We tried to catch Unbeatables but just fell short so CONGRATZ to them.
The win bonuses as just not necessary neither, we lost 55-65 to Pros (5 points away from a great draw) yet all the players efforts resulted in a 55-85 loss it's wrong.
I think the scores should be reset for all teams once the split is done. At the moment all the positions when the split has been carried out are more formalities than anything. There was no way any of the other teams in Div 2 were going to be able to catch Black Scorpions and the same with Fearless Knights with Pros or Uprising. We tried to catch Unbeatables but just fell short so CONGRATZ to them.
The win bonuses as just not necessary neither, we lost 55-65 to Pros (5 points away from a great draw) yet all the players efforts resulted in a 55-85 loss it's wrong.
16:31 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
No it isn't wrong, if you'd drawn or won, it wouldn't be an issue. There's no legitimate reason to reward failure.
I do agree we came 4th qualified to compete versus the other top teams and a team who didn't bragging about coming 5th.
I think the scores should be reset for all teams once the split is done. At the moment all the positions when the split has been carried out are more formalities than anything. There was no way any of the other teams in Div 2 were going to be able to catch Black Scorpions and the same with Fearless Knights with Pros or Uprising. We tried to catch Unbeatables but just fell short so CONGRATZ to them.
The win bonuses as just not necessary neither, we lost 55-65 to Pros (5 points away from a great draw) yet all the players efforts resulted in a 55-85 loss it's wrong.
I think the scores should be reset for all teams once the split is done. At the moment all the positions when the split has been carried out are more formalities than anything. There was no way any of the other teams in Div 2 were going to be able to catch Black Scorpions and the same with Fearless Knights with Pros or Uprising. We tried to catch Unbeatables but just fell short so CONGRATZ to them.
The win bonuses as just not necessary neither, we lost 55-65 to Pros (5 points away from a great draw) yet all the players efforts resulted in a 55-85 loss it's wrong.
No it isn't wrong, if you'd drawn or won, it wouldn't be an issue. There's no legitimate reason to reward failure.
16:40 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
I don't want rewarding, we won 55 points and I'm happy with that, rewarding Pros in this example with a further 20 points might well have been 50-100.
18:13 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
The scoring its ok, bonus point is ok aswell. Maybe if a change can be made is to reduce bonus down to 10 points but not remove it completely.
18:16 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
I think that's a good call erigert tbh, 20 is more than 1 FCL match alone. 10 seems a little more fair.
21:04 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
What if the Bonus was either,
Relevant to Players Matches won in the Fixture.
For Example if 5 Players win for team, then 5 or 10 Bonus Points are rewarded or 4 Players win and therefore 4 or 8 Bonus Points for the win are rewarded.
Or, just a standard 8 points.
Just an idea on something I really don't care about, but decided to throw into the mix
The scoring its ok, bonus point is ok aswell. Maybe if a change can be made is to reduce bonus down to 10 points but not remove it completely.
What if the Bonus was either,
Relevant to Players Matches won in the Fixture.
For Example if 5 Players win for team, then 5 or 10 Bonus Points are rewarded or 4 Players win and therefore 4 or 8 Bonus Points for the win are rewarded.
Or, just a standard 8 points.
Just an idea on something I really don't care about, but decided to throw into the mix
22:38 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
The 20 point works well as the scenario that a clan who wins the most games has won the league since it was introduced. There has been 2 occasions that if it had been 10 you would have had a team who got beat by a clan winning the league which is madness in a team event. It is like Man united winning all their games 1-0 yet man city won all theirs 10-0 apart from a 1-0 loss to Man united, yet man city still win the league yet they couldn't go unbeaten like man united did. If you want to get rid of bonus points make all clan games 2 points for a win and use frames as goal difference for teams who are tied level on points. Easy way to get rid of bonus points and to guarantee that the team who wins the most games wins the league.
23:47 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
What you refer to as madness, some of us think is a more accurate outcome. Not everyone sees a team match as one game, and frames as points within it. I see every frame as it's own game, if there are any points within it, that's like balls potted, positions gained.
10 would allow a big lead in frame count to sometimes counter (weigh more than) team match count, which is very rare as it is (it's happened on lower levels, but never at 1st/2nd). It would make FCL a true compromise between the 2 methods (frame count and team match count), instead of making it almost all about team matches.
You calling your last idea: "getting rid of bonus points" is offensive (it's insulting to the intelligence of anyone wanting less bonus points)
You're talking about dropping the frame count competely!?
Anyone here interested in this and with a half a brain knows that the bonus points represent team match count. Anyone wanting less bonus points, is asking you for team match count to have LESS weight. To start giving points ONLY for team match wins is like making it ALL bonus points!
If FCL stops counting frames (without another league with a long format taking it's place), or if the bonus points are increased, count me out of clans.
It's already ridiculously one-sided now the way things are done. 4 competitions, and only one of them allow frame count on the overall table! and you're talking about changing that!?
Edited at 21:10 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
10 would allow a big lead in frame count to sometimes counter (weigh more than) team match count, which is very rare as it is (it's happened on lower levels, but never at 1st/2nd). It would make FCL a true compromise between the 2 methods (frame count and team match count), instead of making it almost all about team matches.
You calling your last idea: "getting rid of bonus points" is offensive (it's insulting to the intelligence of anyone wanting less bonus points)
You're talking about dropping the frame count competely!?
Anyone here interested in this and with a half a brain knows that the bonus points represent team match count. Anyone wanting less bonus points, is asking you for team match count to have LESS weight. To start giving points ONLY for team match wins is like making it ALL bonus points!
If FCL stops counting frames (without another league with a long format taking it's place), or if the bonus points are increased, count me out of clans.
It's already ridiculously one-sided now the way things are done. 4 competitions, and only one of them allow frame count on the overall table! and you're talking about changing that!?
Edited at 21:10 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
23:56 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
wouldn't be same as FBL then?, FCL has always been about frames and the win bonus, i don't think FCL should be changed personally.
23:58 Tue 14 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
asking about keith's idea?, no not like FBL (I think he's talking about 2 points for a team match, not a indiv match) more like SL with a long format.
No change yes, except for a drop to 10, since so many are against a complete drop of bonus points.
Every time its been brought up in the last 2 or 3 seasons, seemed to me that the majority of voices posting wanted 10. The runner just hasn't ever wanted to (didn't happen to be his opinion).
Edited at 21:02 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
No change yes, except for a drop to 10, since so many are against a complete drop of bonus points.
Every time its been brought up in the last 2 or 3 seasons, seemed to me that the majority of voices posting wanted 10. The runner just hasn't ever wanted to (didn't happen to be his opinion).
Edited at 21:02 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
00:03 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
I liked what hippesville suggested. A win bonus when a player wins, maybe 2 points. Thats 16 available if they win all 8. Teams like the pros ect are always gonna beat teams like FPD as there is such a gulf in quality. Why do they need an extra 20 points? At least if one or two of their team falter we might pick up an extra 2 or 4 points.
00:08 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
I quite like this idea too, gives a bit more of an incentive to actually try and win your own match rather than just playing for the bare frame count.
I liked what hippesville suggested. A win bonus when a player wins, maybe 2 points. Thats 16 available if they win all 8. Teams like the pros ect are always gonna beat teams like FPD as there is such a gulf in quality. Why do they need an extra 20 points? At least if one or two of their team falter we might pick up an extra 2 or 4 points.
I quite like this idea too, gives a bit more of an incentive to actually try and win your own match rather than just playing for the bare frame count.
00:15 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
I'd like it better too, you'd still get the most if you win your team match (in most cases, there would be rare cases where the winner of the team match doesn't get the most bonus points, not sure how keith's gonna like that) but they're awarded for indiv wins. The only way one team would get them all is if there's an indiv match whitewash.
Fcl would become a compromise of frame count and indiv match count.
Edited at 21:27 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
Fcl would become a compromise of frame count and indiv match count.
Edited at 21:27 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
00:18 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
If you're comparing it to football and want the team who wins the most games to win the league then surely a more accurate way of doing it would be 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and 0 for a loss... and then seperate by frame difference should there be a tie.
The 20 point works well as the scenario that a clan who wins the most games has won the league since it was introduced. There has been 2 occasions that if it had been 10 you would have had a team who got beat by a clan winning the league which is madness in a team event. It is like Man united winning all their games 1-0 yet man city won all theirs 10-0 apart from a 1-0 loss to Man united, yet man city still win the league yet they couldn't go unbeaten like man united did. If you want to get rid of bonus points make all clan games 2 points for a win and use frames as goal difference for teams who are tied level on points. Easy way to get rid of bonus points and to guarantee that the team who wins the most games wins the league.
If you're comparing it to football and want the team who wins the most games to win the league then surely a more accurate way of doing it would be 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and 0 for a loss... and then seperate by frame difference should there be a tie.
00:18 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
Clans are team events, so if a team wins all their games they should win. If you want individual ability to decide then I suggest you create a league for individuals as frame count would work great in that.
What you refer to as madness, some of us think is a more accurate outcome. Not everyone sees a team match as one game, and frames as points within it. I see every frame as it's own game, if there are any points within it, that's like balls potted, positions gained.
10 would allow a big lead in frame count to sometimes counter (weigh more than) team match count, which is very rare as it is (it's happened on lower levels, but never at 1st/2nd). It would make FCL a true compromise between the 2 methods (frame count and team match count), instead of making it almost all about team matches.
You calling your last idea: "getting rid of bonus points" is offensive (it's insulting to the intelligence of anyone wanting less bonus points)
You're talking about dropping the frame count competely!?
Anyone here interested in this and with a half a brain knows that the bonus points represent team match count. Anyone wanting less bonus points, is asking you for team match count to have LESS weight. To start giving points ONLY for team match wins is like making it ALL bonus points!
If FCL stops counting frames (without another league with a long format taking it's place), or if the bonus points are increased, count me out of clans.
It's already ridiculously one-sided now the way things are done. 4 competitions, and only one of them allow frame count on the overall table! and you're talking about changing that!?
Edited at 21:10 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
10 would allow a big lead in frame count to sometimes counter (weigh more than) team match count, which is very rare as it is (it's happened on lower levels, but never at 1st/2nd). It would make FCL a true compromise between the 2 methods (frame count and team match count), instead of making it almost all about team matches.
You calling your last idea: "getting rid of bonus points" is offensive (it's insulting to the intelligence of anyone wanting less bonus points)
You're talking about dropping the frame count competely!?
Anyone here interested in this and with a half a brain knows that the bonus points represent team match count. Anyone wanting less bonus points, is asking you for team match count to have LESS weight. To start giving points ONLY for team match wins is like making it ALL bonus points!
If FCL stops counting frames (without another league with a long format taking it's place), or if the bonus points are increased, count me out of clans.
It's already ridiculously one-sided now the way things are done. 4 competitions, and only one of them allow frame count on the overall table! and you're talking about changing that!?
Edited at 21:10 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
Clans are team events, so if a team wins all their games they should win. If you want individual ability to decide then I suggest you create a league for individuals as frame count would work great in that.
00:21 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
It would work great for team events too, It's still individual results, added together AS A TEAM, like ANY OTHER METHOD.
You just can't see that because you refuse to stop looking at a team match as one game for 10 sec. No team wins ALL their games then.
Edited at 21:26 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
You just can't see that because you refuse to stop looking at a team match as one game for 10 sec. No team wins ALL their games then.
Edited at 21:26 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
00:22 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
If you're comparing it to football and want the team who wins the most games to win the league then surely a more accurate way of doing it would be 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and 0 for a loss... and then seperate by frame difference should there be a tie.
Yes 3 points for win, 1 for a draw. And frames as goal difference means the need for bonus points is removed and defaults have little or no impact on the overall outcome which is another current problem that everyone seems happy to overlook.
The 20 point works well as the scenario that a clan who wins the most games has won the league since it was introduced. There has been 2 occasions that if it had been 10 you would have had a team who got beat by a clan winning the league which is madness in a team event. It is like Man united winning all their games 1-0 yet man city won all theirs 10-0 apart from a 1-0 loss to Man united, yet man city still win the league yet they couldn't go unbeaten like man united did. If you want to get rid of bonus points make all clan games 2 points for a win and use frames as goal difference for teams who are tied level on points. Easy way to get rid of bonus points and to guarantee that the team who wins the most games wins the league.
If you're comparing it to football and want the team who wins the most games to win the league then surely a more accurate way of doing it would be 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and 0 for a loss... and then seperate by frame difference should there be a tie.
Yes 3 points for win, 1 for a draw. And frames as goal difference means the need for bonus points is removed and defaults have little or no impact on the overall outcome which is another current problem that everyone seems happy to overlook.
00:26 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
No as the ability to win large means you can win despite as a team being unable to beat your nearest challengers. The hardest game you get in a season is your nearest challengers, not being able to beat them should mean as a team any win of a league would be hollow. I remember when untouchables won league yet MVP won all their games. Even the UT players admitted that it felt hollow as they had lost their big game of the season against MVP and that the league was flawed as MVP should have won,
It would work great for team events too, It's still individual results, added together AS A TEAM, like ANY OTHER METHOD.
No as the ability to win large means you can win despite as a team being unable to beat your nearest challengers. The hardest game you get in a season is your nearest challengers, not being able to beat them should mean as a team any win of a league would be hollow. I remember when untouchables won league yet MVP won all their games. Even the UT players admitted that it felt hollow as they had lost their big game of the season against MVP and that the league was flawed as MVP should have won,
00:29 Wed 15 Jul 15 (BST) [Link]
Don't you see? that's an opinion. Just like mine. Noone is wrong here.
I'd say what happened rightfully happened. They started out the season with a certain scoring system, everyone knew what it was when they started. Whichever team scores more in that system wins.
I don't like the way FBL is scored very much. I think frame count would be more accurate. But when uprising just won it, I didn't go looking to see what the frame count/ or team match count was, or who would've won that way. It wouldn't matter.
But how you're acting about that past FCL season, is like me saying:
Pros should've won FBL because we won the most frames/team matches!
Doesn't make much since right? It wasn't the scoring system that we knew we'd be using when it started. Therefore they won fair and square.
Edited at 22:16 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
I'd say what happened rightfully happened. They started out the season with a certain scoring system, everyone knew what it was when they started. Whichever team scores more in that system wins.
I don't like the way FBL is scored very much. I think frame count would be more accurate. But when uprising just won it, I didn't go looking to see what the frame count/ or team match count was, or who would've won that way. It wouldn't matter.
But how you're acting about that past FCL season, is like me saying:
Pros should've won FBL because we won the most frames/team matches!
Doesn't make much since right? It wasn't the scoring system that we knew we'd be using when it started. Therefore they won fair and square.
Edited at 22:16 Tue 14/07/15 (BST)
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