Unbeatables in

This is where our opinions differ.

In my view a 15-0 win or similar for example is a lot 'flukier' than any other score. By 'flukier' I mean that generally they are rare and often happen because a player just gets so fed up they give in. Now that 15-0 scoreline arguably distorts the whole remaining fixture. Similarly teams at the start or end of a season can just capitulate which again provides scorelines that can distort fixtures let alone whole seasons when you are simply just adding up frames (racks) won. 'Flukiness' can then simply become the luck of the draw in which teams you play and at which point of the season.

As a general argument in Clan Leagues I firmly believe the vast majority of players take the underlying view that the aim is to win the fixture against the opposition rather than gather as many racks as possible. Thats why you see numerous posts where a player goes into the final fixture with his team say leading 57-48 and he might lose 10-5. The posts go along the lines off 'bad luck x still won us the fixture' etc.

You already have two (had three) leagues where its just an individual competition amalgamated together. I think, like in golf, there might be room for both 'strokeplay' (FCL, FBL, TCL etc) and 'matchplay' (Super League) type events.

15-0 can only happen if one plays far better than the other.
You can have both play equally well and get a 7-8 or something similar.(luck decides)
to give one all the points, and the other nothing, exacerbates that luck factor

You're right, that's our difference in opinion

about last season, I believe we had 3 compromises of both opinions, (win bonuses for game types or matches)

Edited at 18:07 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)

The nature of this game is that large slices of luck affect all scores. But players giving up is not luck (other than one persons luck that the opponent pretty much quits.
). However its certainly bad luck for every other team in the League.

What about the luck of the draw in which teams you play when. Remember The Pros won the League by virtue of two 15-0 default wins from the very first game of the season in the season before last. I would say that is extreme 'luck' (though it might not have been what The Pros wanted) to have played a struggling team first up which later recovers to get games completed later in the season.

One 9-0 win here (with luck involved) could only be recovered by a similar score in another game. In fact five other wins by the opposition might still not reverse that 'fluke' scoreline.

This way round a 9-0 score line can be recovered by any one other player beating an opponent.

Is the Ryder Cup result a fluke? Actually dont answer that with the USA's recent record!!!

Teams In

Pocket Dynamos
Professionals
Snooker Squad
The Underdogs
Unbeatables
Uprising

Never said that luck isn't a factor in a 15-0, but there's no disputing that the one with 15 at least deserved to win the match. When there's a close match, noone really out played the other. Why does one deserve all the points?

I agree that there's luck in the draw sometimes, but isn't that off subject?

About the 9-0 thing, isn't that better (less luck involved) than people getting 5-1's when it was actually 11-7?

Does me being American (or the game of golf) have anything to do with this? lol

American doesnt but golf (at least matchplay golf like the Ryder Cup/Presidents Cup) does - as per my first reply.

If you want a pool analogy then its the Mosconi Cup.

There is the same luck involved in just about every game - just depends how evenly it is spread allied to a lesser extent by player ability and/or attitude that makes the difference in the final score.

Teams In

Elite Force
Pocket Dynamos
Professionals
Snooker Squad
The Underdogs
Unbeatables
Uprising

lol, I love it, let's answer the questions that suit us, and ignore the ones that are losing us the debate
I give up trying to convince you of anything, you make it impossible.
Still gonna play, love the format.
There's really no denying though, that the points system exacerbates the luck factor.

Awww OK then - I'll let you answer the ones that are losing the debate - ie what makes a 'matchplay' format (just beat your opponent) more lucky than a 'strokeplay' format (amass as many racks as possible). Always remembering as well that 'strokeplay' will already exist in FCL and FBL this season.

Is that OK?

yes, thank you for answering my questions, I think each answer shows gaps in your logic.

Whether you count points by frames or matches (is this not the subject), neither will affect the luck of the draw, so that IS off subject.
No difference between 11-7 and 5-1?, really?

to answer your question, I say again,
15-0 can only happen if one plays far better than the other.
(at least the one getting all the points deserved to win the match)
You can have both play equally well and get a 7-8 or something similar.(luck decides the winner, noone deserved to win the match, it was pretty much a tie)
yet with points for matches, one of them gets ALL the points, just like the 15-0. The "distortion" you speak of, can happen both ways.
But come on!, which way had a higher luck factor?

Edited at 20:36 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)

Edited at 20:38 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)
also, just thoughtof this, which one's gonna happen more often?

Edited at 20:39 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)

The whole debate started from a supposed 'luck factor' so everything is on subject if it relates to 'luck factors'.

One player winning 15-0 in a team event should not outweigh seven other players winning 8-7. That is not then a true team event in my opinion. The aim of each player in any game should be to beat their opponent. Yes that is my opinion - but also not just mine.

I have answered all your questions - perhaps try answering mine?

If you think luck decides the winner in any close game then that frankly is just ridiculous with respect.

The luck factor is the reason a feel the way I do, but the debate started about whether to count frames or matches.(the decision you make will have no effect on the luck involved in draws)

About one player being able to win it for the whole team, that's a good point, but I think your method's gonna have a lot of 12-0's that cause the same problem.( and in those 12-0's, the loser may have won 33% of the game played, hence they're gonna happen a lot more often)

I think I'm the only one that may still have an unanswered question, but I just answered it myself

and luck definately does decide the winner of a close match,
look at a close match, say 8-7, the next time those same 2 play again, the winner often changes.
now look at a 15-0, how often does the one with 0 win it the next time they meet?

Edited at 21:11 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)
I'm not the best typist, hence all the edits, and for that same reason, this is taking too much of my time, especially when it's obvious I'm not going to get anywhere with you
So, forgive me if I now stop checking this thread and answering your questions.
Looking forward to the season, whatever you decide, see y'all there

Edited at 21:16 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)

Edited at 21:18 Sun 19/05/13 (BST)

Thats the point though is it not - the result might not change on the 15-0 but the score almost definitely will.

Haven't answered my point about Ryder Cup or Mosconi Cup team competitions and why they are luck based. Or about tournament wins on here.

Suppose in a tournament I play superbly well (yes this is hypothetical!!) and beat you, onua and seb 2-1, 2-1 and then 3-2 to win. In another tournament I beat 3 'poor' players 2-0, 2-0 and 3-0.

Was I luckier in the first or the second (disregarding absolutely any lucky shots that may have happened in either scenario)? Now if I played superbly in the first with not one fluke and fluked half a dozen times in the second was I luckier in the first or the second scenario?

Just showing its an irrelevance. The end result is the same. I aimed to beat my opponents and win the tournament and I did.

I don't understand what you mean that first part

about golf, I dont follow it, so I can't answer that question

tournaments are knockouts, I think knockouts have a huge luck factor, because everything can be decided in one match
(again, one match, when it's close, is decided by luck, the next time they meet there's a good chance the other guy will win)
when you count frames, there's always a chance for runners-up to retake the lead

if that's all the questions........

its not all about luck though, its about the form on the day, one day you could play at your best, the next you could play at your worst.

its only about luck when it is won by a fluke

In many team competitions for what are otherwise primarily individual sports the scoring is often a set number of points for each individual game regardless of margin of victory. Golf, Pool, Tennis, Athletics to name a few.

lets play golf