Only long games between evenly matched players make it more accurate.

It means the best team wins the direct fixture between the main rivals.

Beating an opponent from a team bottom of the league by 15-0 or 14-1 should not make the difference between winning a league or not.

A strong argument, but one fixture shouldn't decide a whole season either. Again, didn't you say yourself?, that one fixture isn't enough to decide between Pro's and SS?

and what if the difference is an average of 13-2 vs an average of 10-5? But the 10-5-ers happened to luck up and win their fixture against the 13-2-ers?

I think if reflecting the season as a whole, and not one fixture, the 13-2-ers deserve it.

Edited at 02:06 Sun 02/06/13 (BST)

It should if there are only two competitive teams - or two fixtures if you play each other twice etc. Of course with more evenly matched teams the more fixtures decide the season.

You see this is the thought process I really dont get. If the 10-5 ers beat the 13-2 ers across 8 matches why do you assume it was luck as opposed to them being the better players?

I don't think one, or even 2 is enough with the amount of frames being played. Need to consider the whole season.

I agree that with more evenly matched teams counting matches would gain accuracy, but in my 5 seasons, there's always been only 2 or 3 competitive teams. I don't think that's gonna change. Besides, still wouldn't be as accurate as counting frames even if all the teams were candidates to win.

I take it you mean 8 individual matches?, its still only one overall fixture, like a cup match. It doesn't reflect how the teams played throughout the whole season. It's like judging a player by one day's play, it may be an off day.

Also, they won most of their fixtures much more decisively.

Edited at 02:25 Sun 02/06/13 (BST)

You guys are going to keep talking in circles, because there are two very legitimate ways of looking at it.

A) Every frame is an achievement in itself and should be acknowledged. Those who win more frames than others throughout the season deserve to win.

or

B) Winning fixtures is the most important thing. If you beat everyone throughout the season, you deserve to win.

There's no way you're going to prove anyone wrong or convince them differently.

In reality though that doesn't happen. If one team averaged 10-5 and the other team 12-3 then, give or take, across the season the difference would be 144 frames for a 10 team league. Even a difference between 8-7 and 9-6 would be 72 frames.

Its very rare that its actually more than 10 and even then only if the top team has won all of their fixtures against the other clans. In the last TCL (the only figures I have to hand) the difference was 5 frames from 9 matches. Thats five frames from 72 games and 864 frames played per side. If you accept that there is even luck for and against in every frame you play you are arguably extending that luck factor impact from 8 games to 72.



No but it gives something to do.

Your scenarios A) & B) though do lead on to a very interesting point.

Most if not all teams actually play more to scenario B) than A) regardless of the league format. If you played to scenario A) you would always name your best scoring 8 players in every game and only sub them out when absolutely necessary.

In fact most, if not all, teams actually spread their games around all of their active clan members regardless of the likely scores they might achieve and sub at any point it becomes necessary to get a game played or assist in getting a game played and avoid defaults.

You're right, I'll stop trying. Just let me remind everyone of this:
The 2 cups are ran completely according to belief B.
Everything else we have is some level of compromise between both beliefs (btw, I would like to point out that it is these, where belief A plays a role, that most people think are the leagues to win), unless super league has a knockout round at the end, then it's joined the cups (no compromise).
But nowhere, does belief A have it's way.

Edited at 18:21 Sun 02/06/13 (BST)

It doesnt mean they arent actually approaching it from a belief B perspective as opposed to approaching it from a belief A perspective. That is such a compelling point.

Get all teams to approach it from a belief A perspective and your final outcomes will be more representative. To be honest if you could achieve that then the positive impact would be huge. Players would not stick in these super-clans as they would hardly get a game. We would then have several highly competitve clans capable of beating each other.

What it does show is that players dont like changes and that they like to stick with an original format that has been around a long time. (Pretty much a format created by me actually in case you think I have a completely narrow point of view!! )



It did have but it was shown to not produce the winners on occasions that it should have done.

Wasn't refering to anyone's approach, was just pointing out that belief A is considered and practiced.

You should put an "I think" in there. You know good and well that that isn't a fact, it's an opinion, and I disagree.
I could say the same for any league season where the one awarded the win didn't have the best frame difference, but I'm willing to admit that's an opinion.

Do you really feel that if there's 2 or more leagues going belief B's way, there shouldn't be at least one going belief A's way? No compromise at all? Not a very empathetic man are you?

Hang on a sec. You have two leagues that favour belief A to some extent more or less. And definitely one that has favoured belief A for every season of its existence till now.

I introduced another which favours belief B and now I am the one that is not compromising or empathetic? Surely its the other 2/3rds of the clan league world that you need to be addressing that to.

And belief A is not practiced if people dont approach it with that mindset. Its like saying that a one party dictatorship practices democracy if it gives its people the right to vote even though there is only one party/candidate to vote for.

You are so difficult! Did I not say that 2 leagues have a compromise? They still also consider belief B.

Your league, if you have a knockout round, doesn't consider belief A at all.

Belief A is practiced! They count frames do they not!
You're still thinking approach, if they count frames the belief IS IN PRACTICE!
You're impossible, don't expect another response from me. I've lost interest in your opinion.

No if you have it half way as in just counting frames without considering the approach then it is just in theory because you do not know what would happen in practice if all conditions were met.

I thought you had lost interest anyway since you keep referring to a knockout round when there has not been one since it was known how many teams had entered.

Discussion Points

1) Weighting of Killer compared to the other game types.

Any others at this stage?

I'm glad I made the discussion easier by introducing Belief A vs B into this

Thats a really good point and I meant to post about it this afternoon.

First and second on the same team gives the same score for each in feeding into the pairs ranking table.

thanks ^

All I was saying is that in those leagues, belief A gets a compromise (plays a role), because frames ARE counted, and (this is where belief B also plays a role) they have bonuses for fixture wins. Regardless of the "approach" or intention, frames ARE counted. It is a compromise.

Maybe the fcl's compromise USED to lean more toward belief A (but don't forget, it had a cup for the "followers of belief B), but he's increased the bonuses for fixture wins to the point where I think the outcome could end up in belief B's favor.

That's good news, I thought you'd changed your mind. Much less flukey without a knockout round (then it can't be decided by one fixture).

I do value your opinion, I apologize for saying I don't. I just got angry at how stubborn you can be when it comes to understanding a point I'm trying to make (not talking about swaying your opinion, just getting you to understand what I'm trying to say)

You did

Seriously, I'm tired of debating which method is better, it's not going anywhere like seb said.
I just wanted say that in the spirit of compromise, with:
2 leagues (cups) completely by fixtures
1 league (yours) something different, but you said yourself it favors belief B
and 2 leagues (fcl, fbl) a compromise of frames and fixtures
I think belief A's getting the short end of the stick.

edit: I got the A's and the B's mixed up lol

Edited at 02:22 Mon 03/06/13 (BST)