I have a really novel idea. How about you pick a team to play another team and only sub/swap if a player has been off for any length of time or if there is a problem with time difference.

Most teams have players that are active so subbing in the first 10 or 12 days is unnecessary. It has been stated that subs have been made to spread games out, surely it is the person responsible for submitting the team to ensure all players have a fair crack of the whip when submitting line ups.

I personally have been put off funky due to all the politics and rubbish, and although I am no great loss, I feel I am not the only one to lose interest due to this. Some people need to take a step back and realise it is an online game, nobody actually wins money or medals it's all pretend

Peace and love to all.

Matt

Agree with above post

You're speaking as if this is an isolated case, but every single clan has made a complaint this season, and last season with Phoenix. Just because onevisit doesn't mind who he plays, that doesn't mean that all the other clans aren't sick of this tactic. As many others have mentioned - it is diminishing the enjoyment of playing in the leagues. If it was just once a season, no-one would bat an eyelid, but it's not. And the fact that no other clan does it, really draws attention. The current system is great, and is enjoyable to all as long as everyone shows a little integrity, and sticks to an unsaid code of conduct.

I had more fun coming 2nd in the 2nd division with no clan doing tactical subs, or trying to manipulate the process.

I think there are a few things to address which most seem to disagree with:

- Inactive players in from the start of the set, forces opponents to wait until they reappear or are subbed out. I think players should be excluded from being in the list of a fixture set if they are offline 4 days or more.

- free for all subbing, it wasn't the intention when it was brought in to have this level of changing. I've seen players being forced to have 3 opponents in the space of less than 12 hours more than once (one situation to swap around a player who wanted an easier game, another the first two were online at the same time as the opponent yet a third who was offline was subbed in). People seem slowly sick of this, but I don't think they would be happy to have a limited amount of subs. I think 12 days is a bit too much, it doesn't leave much room for organisation. Maybe from Tuesday/Wednesday of the second week of a fixture subs can be done. Before then, only players who are offline 4 days or more can be subbed out subject to a league runners approval (for this a few trusted members could be enlisted to confirm eligibility). Swaps can be gone at anytime provided a captain/VC from both sides agrees.

That should give the initial fixture the best chance to get played without hindering the overall match.

- All subs are tactical, while usually the best player around is subbed in it doesn't always happen. Players who've had less games sub in, stronger players get subbed out, etc.

You can't deny the fact though that everyone was fine with the sub before-hand, captain included then world war 3 started after a 6-1 win for crazy_kid.
That's a lot of problem in clans, your teams and you personally constantly harrassing Ash over everything he does is just as much gamesmanship as the subs.
You can see how you have progressed through your posts from insulting his 'little team' all the time to now 'if he achieves anything it will be tarnished by tactical subs'
You used to say that you didn't mind, you would put any of your team against anyone as long as there is plenty of time to play the match, which there always is when Ash subs.
I actually agree about the tactical subs but I think the way you guys behave and try to bully has a lot more adverse effect on the leagues as does the way pool sharks has been run for years making it impossible to get games done smoothly with them.

Do any of your players actually ever have a problem getting a game played with one of Ash's team?...don't think so
Should the rules be changed during a season? No
Is he breaking any rules? No

Then why are you filling up all the clan threads with arguing during a season, why not wait and let people enjoy the league?
90% of it is gamesmanship and vendetta based from you, your team see posts from players like Gaz from Ash's clan that are fed up with the arguing on the thread and suddenly we have your whole team on there...so transparent.

As a suggestion for next season

Rule change
A substitution or swap can be made if.

i)A player has been inactive for a period of 5 days or more during the first week or 3 days or more in the 2nd week
ii)If requested by the opposing player or captain due to time difference, lack of communication or unwillingness to play from their opponent
iii)A player has expressed an inability or unwillingness to fulfill their match on the forum or becomes unavailable through deactivation
iv)Through league runners special circumstances permission which must be obtained before the sub is classed as valid
v)Requests from players or captains for a sub don't have to be obeyed but hindering the game getting played will obviously reflect baddly in the case of a default
vi)Players continually being subbed out of games or any abuse of the system will be punishable with bans or in extreme cases points deduction

Think that covers all bases

yes I can because within minutes there were 3 people acknowledging a tactical element to the sub. Jon acknowledged he didn't care if it was tactical because he would play anyone. The explosion happened because of how many times it has happened in less than a week.

Ash causes the trouble for himself, I do feel now he is a victim of his own reputation but how many times has he posted that he will only post the bare minimum to avoid arguments then the next day he'll post something which shows he won't. Whether it be rudely demanding/denying a sub or hypocritically complaining about something one set, then doing the exact same thing several times in the next.

I don't see anything but minimal progression in his teams, onevisit proved that people will still play anyone. He has himself made statements about other teams (and usually he makes the first). Just because people don't stand it when he does it doesn't mean he is being bullied. He dishes it out, people dish it back. When he first came on the scene everyone had sympathy and defence for him because he was messed about and subbed out because he wasn't as good as someone else but he openly did the same next season and it was downhill from there.

Yes, a lot more hassle is created from nothing and we get games played quicker and with less hassle most times.

No one is saying the rules should be changed mid-season, he doesn't act within the good nature or spirit of the league.

Ignoring all the ridiculous insinuations that our team are instructed to go and post on your thread, and the inaccurate claim that I post on every teams threads - is it "so transparent" how all 7 other clans are sick to the back teeth of it? Is it gamesmanship and a personal vendetta with every other clan? And this started long before shadows getting subbed in. This has been happening from the formation of Phoenix Storm. It is one singular unpleasant manipulation of the system, that if cut out would eliminate a massive percentage of arguments with EVERY other clan. Why do all the other 7 clans have a perfectly good relationship?

You have a playing roster good enough to beat any other side. If you did what every other team does, and tactically select your initial teamsheet to try and win the fixture - *poof* no issue. If you send in a teamsheet with a couple of weak links, with the intention of subbing them out to gain an advantage - then it renders the entire teamsheet process obsolete, and makes every other team that doesn't sink to those tactics furious.

lfc12 offered 3 times to leave the game as it was and was told the sub was okay by the player and fran the captain.

Posts on 15th man thread in 2015
faust.................33
derik_dalton.....28
erigert..............18
zantetsukenz.....6

Posts on Uprising thread in 2015
ash....................3 (All 3 of his posts politely asking for a sub for inactive player or making a sub.)

85 posts in 17 days on our thread from your team, you're all obsessed! If this was the real world Ash would have a restraining order out on you guys!
That is a concerted effort to destabilise a team and a vendetta which ruins clans as I said in my post before.
It also detracts from the validity of your arguments as anybody can see your team's motives and faust's personal war from a mile away.

Random fixs are random for a reason . Its much more exciting and fun to see who u get and who others get too . Wheres the fun in making non stop subs and swaps . Boring i say ! And cowardly.

A new rule would be very welcomed on subs/ swaps.

Like I said, I agree with you on that, the rules should be changed for next season, even posted some rules that I think would work well.
You should have been on here though raising the points to the league runners, not waging war on the threads(which again is bad for clans) and if the problem has been there for ages then you would have got the support for a rule change.
It's not up to us to impose our morality or way of thinking onto others, Ash isn't breaking any rules so let's just change the rules for next season and move on.

Here is the run of play in my eyes.......

Captain's submit teams and fixtures are made.
Players message their opponents.
Arrangements for match to be played are agreed.
After 10 days, Captains/Vice Captains gauge whether the match is gonna be played, and act accordingly.
Problems with opposing players captains take it to League Runners if no chance of resolution.
.........last resort, default

KEY THING IS COMMUNICATION IN EACH CLAN

Really baffles me why there can be so much GRIEF over this.
From my point of view, I joined a Clan to play pool, no matter who the opponent is. I've only been subbed out a handful of times, which has been because of work commitments or time zone issues.

The funk in funkypool is slowly but surely being replaced with Grump

My feelings towards Ash stem purely from this singular issue. And a few posts he made that turned about to be lies. However, just because I think he lacks integrity, doesn't mean I wouldn't be equally as angry if other clans incorporated the same tactics - but they don't! You'll find the majority of my posts are about what I consider to be manipulation of the system. The same issue I was angry about before you went on your hiatus. And what you're labelling my "personal war" is actually something every single other clan are complaining about. Eri & Joe's enmity towards Ash are different issues, and nothing to do with me.

Agree with Hippes here, communication is key in any clan although Dollars & Cents on Snooker has been running for 5 years and we rarely see any posts except for results which is fine by us as long as games or played.

While i do agree posting several subs in a few days can be a bad thing (especially active vs active) and be classed as tactical but its not going to stop if people snipe at that clan so people just need to learn to accept it however hard it is to hold in your emotions (i learned how to do it at school) and play different opponents.

The clan isn't breaking any rules

Like I said though that is you imposing your feelings on the way subs should be used and your morality onto others, he isn't 'manipulating the rules' he is doing everything 100% within the rules.
Personally I don't agree that the subs are in the spirit either but that's just a matter of opinion so let's just change the rules for next season and everything will be tranquil in clan leagues lol...yeah right!

Also regarding inactive players, some clans have friends active on Facebook so one message and suddenly they can be active again, perhaps after 5 days if the person is still inactive then they should be subbed?

I don't think you should sub unless a player is inactive or timezone problems but i don't think rules should be changed because of one clan making lots of subs.

The other Captain could also say "Don't play against any subs unless i validate it", sure it would go against that clan but its a clear message saying don't play.

72 hours before the deadline is over then any sub by a player should be made legal regardless of the Captain/Vice activity or other ways then games can be played and avoid defaults.

Still though the players should do what the Captain asks whether its make a sub or don't play

I don't think Captains do themselves many favours sometimes. Its no good simply submitting a team list randomly or just spreading games evenly amongst the 16 players unless you know they are all likely to be active during the period.

If you know of any potential problems during the upcoming two weeks, or if a player has not logged in for a period of time and you don't know of any reason, then dont put them in the starting team and keep them back as a sub if needed. The analogy to football selections is that you generally don't put the injured player in your starting eleven.

That way there is more chance of games being played by the original two named players.

All it needs is a bit of effort and common sense by the Captain or anyone else submitting the list.

I could vet team lists submitted on this basis and question any named inactive players on the list but really its a job more proper to the clan themselves.

As for rule changes for next season, happy to consider anything as long as it is a robust set of rules, enforcable, and not open to individual interpretation.

The player said he would play anyone regardless of if the sub was tactical. Fran wasn't going to prevent the sub, but was expressing his unhappiness with it because it was completely unnecessary and a clear tactical play that did not help the game get played.

Those stat's are completely irrelevant, they in no way represent this season or the behaviour of anyone involved because they span 17 days. Look at mine, they were all polite and most were making conversation with dgen. One time Ash told me to go away after I made conversation with James once, hardly polite trying to be a dictator of a thread he believes he has possession of. Polite would be offline messaging me to say I can see you mean no harm, but in the interests of avoiding others jumping into the conversation and descending it into chaos, can you not post on the thread. Much like hippesville did, which I obliged.

There are no rules against posting in a particular place, if it is off topic it is considered spam. But that also includes double posting, or posting only smiley faces to get to a new page/thread which a lot of people do (most of all on that thread - Ash). So the most spamming done on that thread is by one person. It also in no way detracts from the validity of my argument because I never limited it to posting on other peoples threads because it can be on your own or on a third parties thread.

Take for instance when I posted on this thread the issue of clans starting to "add players to a fixture" which is not within the rules. I made sure that it wasn't just Ash who had done it (though he did start it) and never mentioned his name yet he posted minutes later to defend his stance rather than discuss, as he never responded to it not being within the rules.

The only ones who see faust and our teams motives and personal war are those from 15th man. Every other clan (particularly the captains/vc's) has had an issue with the sub policy (except perhaps revolution). Ash created a massive issue when we tried to get a game done early but then the next set he used the same reasons to make his own subs even earlier in the set. So explain the hypocrisy or the fact that faust's personal vendetta extends to every other clan.