Completely irrelevant whether it's deliberate or not - it's still that player's responsibility to make the shot in time, and regardless of why the time elapses, a penalty should be in order.

But he is on about people who deliberately play slow, an accidental/uncontrollable breach of the time limit is not wasting time

I believe a ball in hand is worse

Take for instance a deadlocked game of 8us where the 8 ball is hanging over the pocket covered by a solid or stripe (or vice versa) where they are the only 2 balls left in a deciding match

with a random shot both players would be under pressure to take a shot (even if it is just pocketing the cue ball) within 20 seconds or they may well end up with a random shot which fouls a ball (either losing the game or leaving an easy finish) - they would be need to be there to take the shot

with a ball in hand, there would be no pressure to take the shot as the opponent would be forced to take the shot with ball in hand - this would lead to more double DQ's in tournys with people just letting the time runout instead of potting white - they dont even have to be at the computer/mac

(a re-rack button would be favourable for this providing both players agree)

I don't care - a penalty is in order in either case - especially since that's the only way to ensure the timeout never hurts the opponent.

Is it also a players responsibility to make sure that the game works for them? (people who get black screens or where their connection is fine but still lag because of some factor beyond their control)

But i agree (even though it happens to me in the process of actually taking the shot) time penalties caused by a player not paying attention to the time or being away from their machine is there fault

Responsibility doesn't matter - if a player has issues with the game, computer or network, that sure as hell should remain his/her problem and not to be shared with their opponent.

That's why the game has timeouts in the first place - both on connection as well as per shot.

Exactly. And that is what happens at the moment, so finally we have put the topic to rest.

It happens 97% of the time.

The remaining 3% is what's being discussed here Dave.

The fact that you refuse to see how a random shot is not always a negative for the active player is something I am frankly getting a little tired of having repeated. You clearly can't be educated on that, gods know I and others have tried, so just gonna have to leave you with that problem I guess.

And again, if you are indeed agreeing that timed out shots should always be penalized, you shouldn't have a problem with changing the random into a ball-in-hand anyway. Ball-in-hand does not imply it has to be a foul - that's just coincidentally the consequence for fouling in most game types - it has no direct relation what so ever.

Ex-squeeze me?

Your question was?

Yes, you are responsible for making a shot in time.

If it's out of your control, that's still your problem and certainly no one else's.

So if there is no possible way a random shot can be avoided, then that person holds no responsiblility, but is to blame?

No, please carry on, as I would love to know where the notion that having the choice of shot taken out of your hands can possibly be to your advantage.

Lets make it as simple as possible :

The only possible way a player could not lose out when they incur a random shot penalty is if the game play exactly the same shot they would have done.

Now, of course, though extremely unlikely, this is possible.

However, and this is the bit people seem to overlook, even if the random shot generator plays precisely the same shot the player would have, there is still no advantage to the player, nor disadvantage to their opponent, since that was the shot which was going to be played anyway.

The 3% you mention is actually when an opponent "thinks" the other player got an advantage, and can't see past a bit of luck being part of the fun of the game, just like some don't like flukes or hit n hopers. But that is a personal issue, not a game query.

And this is where the random shot penalty is actually harsher than any real life rule. In most cases the expiration of the time limit will be due to a distraction affecting the player at the table.

In real life if a streaker runs through the arena, someone spills a pint over the player or table, or someone needs a toilet break, the game stops and people are happy to wait. Here, you get penalised, but thats the only way to keep the game moving.

A ball in hand may reduce those shots that fall under the 3%
but it would also alter those in the other 97%

Nothing would result in an absolute satisfaction from both parties

But personally if something was 97% i wouldn't really be bothered - especially since you're happy with that

The practical consequences for whatever problems that player has needs to be limited to that player and not their opponent, yes.

Words like blame and responsibility may not apply to all aspects of a shot not being made in time, but as I said earlier, that has no practical relevance since you still need to make sure it does not affect the opponent(s).

Maybe everyone should be allowed an extra few seconds in say for instance 3 shots per game

Wouldn't impact opponent as would be just same as taking shot normally and the opponent also has this in reserve for them

Slim chances of being accepted but would be a better option than ball in hand (which doesn't always work out for opponent)

Alright, I'll entertain you with a simple example of when a random shot is in a player's favour.

In this particular discussion you forget the players have various skill levels and different level of understanding for the game - not just the shot they are making (or not making as it were) right now, but also what happens further down the road.

Now, a mediocre or bad player faced with a difficult table will most of the time make bad choices, making a shot that's not a good choice for them at all. For example trying to pot a difficult shot instead of playing a snooker.

Now, in that scenario, occasionally, the random shot turns into the shot they should have made, but would never had the brains or skills to.

I've had random shots myself that end up way better than I would been able to myself - simply from freak luck. It's no better when it's my shot getting lucky - it's still wrong.

That's been discussed before as well, and I for one wouldn't mind a system along those lines at all.

It's a completely separate issue tho, that neither depends on, or answers the problems Yoda brought up here.

If the opponent had a ball in hand instead then they may take a slower approach to the game (if they think the opponent is deliberately wasting time) whereas if the safety would have been pulled off they would have had to whack it and hope or try a shot they believe may work (if they dont know then it just goes back to luck just they are going to put high power on increasing the likelyhood of an in off)

You see this is the thing. It's not wrong. Getting lucky once in a while is 100% right and one of the most fun aspects of the game.

As you say, whether it's your shot, or a shot taken at random by the computer, it doesn't matter.

Even if the random shot plays what you term as a "better" shot, it is still a penalty as the player lost their right to make that choice.

As well as that shot would normally not fit with their individual and unique style of play e.g. it pots an easy ball leaves a hard one, has a completely different position meaning they have to aim for a different pocket....etc