Nope, not necessary. 99% of the time it is blatantly obvious - to most of us anyway.

Seriously Dave, you disappoint me on this topic, although it's nothing new, we've had all these arguments back and forth before.

Not taking a shot within the allotted time may not be a foul in terms of pool rules (but that's debatable too - in many real life settings, players who are stalling eventually get warned and ultimately DQed for it), but you ARE neglecting your responsibility to move the game forward.

And ironically, as much as you underestimate human ability to tell a random apart from a manual shot, you overestimate them in terms of how well people play and whether it is always a disadvantage to get a random shot vs having done one yourself.



And ironically, your boss seems to be one of them - at least he was the one initiating the debate the last time around.

We need to get over the idea that letting the time run out is somehow not a foul. Of course it is, 100% so, and you should always be penalized for it - or to look at it from the other player's perspective - he/she should never be at a disadvantage for it, which is sadly the case now.

I completely agree with Jan here.

I know there is a phenomenon that when you tell a lie loud enough, and often enough, some people can start to believe it is the truth, but I doubt it's going to work here.

Fouls are clearly defined in detail for each game type on this site, and nowhere in any is failing to take a shot within the allotted time listed as a foul.



Again, people are penalized as it is, because they lose their right to take the shot they want.

At no point, ever, can it be fair to say that the outcome of any shot must favour one party or the other.

These are cast iron facts.

Nothing wrong with discussion varying opinions of course, but the facts remain.

Now, time to get on to my boss 'cause if he plays funky maybe I can get it unblocked at work again

People who stall in game rarely go for random shots as you never know where the shot may end up (most of the times ends up as a foul)

People who stall are those who wait until theres 1 or 2 seconds left then either pot (and then do the same thing again before they...) or play a safety


Those getting random shot limits are usually those who dont see the time / are lagging

I liked that sentence greatly, unfortunately though it seems to be becoming more apparent that people seem to believe it works!

To be honest I don't believe there are any problems with how the random shot works. And I believe if a survey was done, people would see it does work more times to the disadvantage of the player not taking the shot rather than the advantage. (And I am talking about a fair investigation, not a biased one to before people try)

What part about "a random shot often turn out better than the player would been able to do themselves" is so hard to understand?

As for being a foul or not, the time limit is as the name implies, a limit, or in other words a limitation to the envelope in which you are trying to make a legal shot. The foul rules state the ways you can actually make a shot, but one that is not compliant with the game rules. Not making a shot at all is clearly even worse.

But for sake of argument, lose the word foul already - it is clearly throwing you off track and/or you are deliberately using it to avoid facing the issue here:

A player not making a shot should have a defined, predictable and significant penalty. Random shot is not that. A ball in hand would be.

no investigation or survey toward that end is necessary at, since I refuse to believe a single user of this site ever believed random shots are an advantage most of the time.

What Yoda brought up here is the sad fact that it is an advantage occasionally - and it should never ever be.

That was a real world comparison, where random shots don't exist - and where referees do

I just wanted to point out that playing within reasonable time is a requirement for real pool too - and that contrary to here, the referee doesn't flip a coin to see what player wins - it is always the stalling player who is DQed - not his opponent.

The often part

9/10 times it doesn't end up benifitting
8/10 times it ends up as a foul


It would be very rare to find someone who plays for a random shot time limit as there is always the chance of fouling the black (or setting up a combo) in which case they would lose

Only once in almost 3 and a half years (over 15,000 games played and countless more watched) have i seen a random shot winning the game for that person but there have been many times i've seen one costing the person the game directly or indirectly. Of course i am only one person so how is it for other people

As i was pointing out people who stall and people who get random shots are two different people
random shots usually are recieved by those not at the computer, lagging or not looking at the time because they are too busy playing

Am sorry you saying something is true just because you believe it is a crap retort! I say the world is flat does this make the situation true!

I believe you argument might carry some creditability if you actually had some proof to support it. I have enough of a mind to not just believe the spiel people spout on this forum! You asked Dave to prove his statement earlier, however I believe as you are the one disagreeing and saying something should be done contrary to the present, I believe the ball is in your court to validate your sentiments!

The balance of the advantage to the disadvantage is one of the positive factors of the random shot, and going what your saying if were thinking bout shots that don't end up with the outcome that was intended, can we please ban flukes or "hit and hopes" as I find them extremely more annoying than a one off random shot here and there!

No idea why you keep trying to discuss something apparently no one disagrees with you on.

Often doesn't imply a majority of the time - far far from it.

Often in this case means once a week, maybe even once a day. Which in either case is way too .... often.

Again, you are trying to discuss something we don't disagree on. Read my post again, you clearly got the wrong idea since your entire post tries to attack a view I don't have.

Depends how you operationalise 'often'

In time wise once a day may seem a lot
In games played it doesnt - once in what must be way way way over A hundred games (which is less than 1%)
A ratio between random shots benefitting and those which dont would end up showing a much greater amount of those not benefitting


So its quite easy to find a way of defining the term in a way which you can manipulate to be in favour of you argument

I believe you are saying that if the timer runs out it should be considered a foul automatically? yes or no?

lets cap the topic your all noobs

let's face it, you cant become biased to 1 player without disadvantaging another, therefore in real terms there is no way for it to be fair, a random shot may work sometimes, it may not, the fact of the matter is there is no way in hell for 100% of the time you can get a way of it being biased to 1 side, maybe a random shot is the best option, but there needs to be more involved not just a wack across the table, maybe get an auto spin added too at which may work out for them, may not would then make it unclear as to if they did foul or not as the game doesn't create spin for you

have to agree with jan that it IS unfair when time runs out and random shot ends up giving that player an advantage.

........but i wonder........does this come into other arguments we keep having on funkypool where when it comes down to it, it's a fun site for playing games.

yes, jan it is frustrating and ive been on the end of quite a few strokes of luck, but, and i still have that niggling me in the back of my mind, more often than not it works out at a disadvantage.

i think, and i ain't read all of thread, that biggest downfall for this is in 8 ball us where u can foul as much as u like (correct me if i'm wrong here) and grind it out until one or the other gives in or game time limit (tourny) expires. this would be very frustrating for opponent who did actually want to play properly....am not keen on this aspect in 8 us and feel there is a need for free table after foul.

this may well have been debated b4 but i really cba looking lol.

here endeth the lesson......hippies of gazereth

I'm not gonna use the word foul anymore since people have such set views on what that implies when it comes to pool games, but lets put it like this instead: I believe you should get penalized for letting the time run out yes - 100% of the time.

Letting implies its deliberate so what about those who are trying to take their shot, but lag and it wont let them take it? (can happen because of some other reason than their connection as when server was playing up myself and 2 different opponents kept getting random shots and i was told a very high amount of people in chat room came up as 'not responding'

Letting implies its deliberate so what about those who are trying to take their shot, but lag and it wont let them take it?
.....same for everyone

whether deliberate or not it should be a foul. key word i think is penalty when clock runs out. therefore it is a foul.