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15 years ago [Link]
technically who ever uses the rules to their advantage, whether playing a foul or not, they are not cheaters, they are just smart.
Use the rules to your advantage, because if you don't others will!
Use the rules to your advantage, because if you don't others will!
15 years ago [Link]
The core issue is this: is deliberately fouling a no-no? (as opposed to an unwanted foul taking place)
15 years ago [Link]
I don't think you pot your opponents balls for tactical reasons, its because your hopeless.
chaos_ said:
I will pot the opponents balls if i have to,to win a game , and i don't like being called a cheat for doing it, hence would be very annoyed if i was labeled a cheat on your profile, its part of the game strategy for some people,, and can u show me where in the funky pool rules it says this is cheating ?
I suggest if you don't like it,don't play the people who do it
I suggest if you don't like it,don't play the people who do it
I don't think you pot your opponents balls for tactical reasons, its because your hopeless.
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15 years ago [Link]
I actually think the more interesting discussion is whether the penalty incurred for a foul in each game type is sufficient to balance out any advantage to be gained from deliberately fouling.
In snooker the 'Miss' rule was rightly brought in to stop players gaining an advantage from playing a deliberate foul. Although it does cause dispute occasionally, overall it did have the desired effect.
I would say that the only game currently on Funkypool where its debatable whether a penalty incurred by a deliberate foul is sufficient is in Straight where the incoming player has to play the table as it lies with no 'ball in hand' or option to put the opponent back in. The others are perfectly fine in my opinion.
In snooker the 'Miss' rule was rightly brought in to stop players gaining an advantage from playing a deliberate foul. Although it does cause dispute occasionally, overall it did have the desired effect.
I would say that the only game currently on Funkypool where its debatable whether a penalty incurred by a deliberate foul is sufficient is in Straight where the incoming player has to play the table as it lies with no 'ball in hand' or option to put the opponent back in. The others are perfectly fine in my opinion.
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15 years ago [Link]
There is a massive difference between what YOU think you know, vs what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm.
And in either case it is completely irrelevant since fouling is a perfectly legitimate action in the first place.
it really isnt a case of what i "think" i know, in the situation i am talking about, it can be very obvious someone has purposely fouled. a computer algorithm cannot prove this, nor can i, but anyone with any shred of common sense can tell when say; the cue ball moves a centimetre straight into a perfectly set up opponents ball, with nothing obscuring the cue balls shot, that its done on purpose.
In fact, that is why there is no such thing as a deliberate foul vs. an accidental one. They are one and the same thing, with a common consequence.
i disagree. a deliberate foul shows intent from the player commiting the foul to go against the games' design, hence why they're given a foul shot. mistakes can happen, but when it is done on purpose, although the consequence is the same, the intent of the player commiting the foul makes them different i believe.
janmb said:
There is a massive difference between what YOU think you know, vs what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm.
And in either case it is completely irrelevant since fouling is a perfectly legitimate action in the first place.
it really isnt a case of what i "think" i know, in the situation i am talking about, it can be very obvious someone has purposely fouled. a computer algorithm cannot prove this, nor can i, but anyone with any shred of common sense can tell when say; the cue ball moves a centimetre straight into a perfectly set up opponents ball, with nothing obscuring the cue balls shot, that its done on purpose.
janmb said:
In fact, that is why there is no such thing as a deliberate foul vs. an accidental one. They are one and the same thing, with a common consequence.
i disagree. a deliberate foul shows intent from the player commiting the foul to go against the games' design, hence why they're given a foul shot. mistakes can happen, but when it is done on purpose, although the consequence is the same, the intent of the player commiting the foul makes them different i believe.
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15 years ago [Link]
Which is why any skilled player at that point will, and should, choose to foul.
yeah, another point of disagreement between us. where you think any "skilled" player will, and should choose to foul, i do not. exploiting a flaw in the us8ball's penalty system to gain an advantage i do see as underhanded and unsporting. those players with the attitude win by any means possible, like yourself, will disagree. it comes down to one's idea of playing fair i think, and ive never seen purposely foul shots as playing fair.
gee im sorry you feel it's been a waste, i thought we had developed quite the forum bond i dont think theres any need for ill feeling here, its merely a difference of opinion in proper pool (us8) conduct. "cheating" may have been an overzealous word to use, but i still stand by my point that fouling on purpose, knowing the consequences are as insignificant as they are (in us8) is underhanded, and is more pathetic than skillful
janmb said:
johnnyveggie said:
the consequence is not a consequence at all compared to the disadvantage youve put your opponent at
Which is why any skilled player at that point will, and should, choose to foul.
yeah, another point of disagreement between us. where you think any "skilled" player will, and should choose to foul, i do not. exploiting a flaw in the us8ball's penalty system to gain an advantage i do see as underhanded and unsporting. those players with the attitude win by any means possible, like yourself, will disagree. it comes down to one's idea of playing fair i think, and ive never seen purposely foul shots as playing fair.
janmb said:
Not going to waste more time on you - we get these ridiculous chivalric discussions now and then - so the final word here is that fouling does not mean you break any rules. Whether you like it or not.
gee im sorry you feel it's been a waste, i thought we had developed quite the forum bond i dont think theres any need for ill feeling here, its merely a difference of opinion in proper pool (us8) conduct. "cheating" may have been an overzealous word to use, but i still stand by my point that fouling on purpose, knowing the consequences are as insignificant as they are (in us8) is underhanded, and is more pathetic than skillful
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15 years ago [Link]
i agree, that is an interesting discussion. that is part of my main argument, that the penalty incurred for a foul in us8 in the later stages, often is not sufficient. which is why it gets exploited, unlike in uk8 (love the rules, cant stand the table lol).
good point. i have seen this done purposely, and the position the player is left with can be shocking lol. hands up all straight players who do this purposely. just curious, not a witch hunt
chris said:
I actually think the more interesting discussion is whether the penalty incurred for a foul in each game type is sufficient to balance out any advantage to be gained from deliberately fouling.
i agree, that is an interesting discussion. that is part of my main argument, that the penalty incurred for a foul in us8 in the later stages, often is not sufficient. which is why it gets exploited, unlike in uk8 (love the rules, cant stand the table lol).
chris said:
I would say that the only game currently on Funkypool where its debatable whether a penalty incurred by a deliberate foul is sufficient is in Straight where the incoming player has to play the table as it lies with no 'ball in hand' or option to put the opponent back in. The others are perfectly fine in my opinion.
good point. i have seen this done purposely, and the position the player is left with can be shocking lol. hands up all straight players who do this purposely. just curious, not a witch hunt
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15 years ago [Link]
Fantastic game! 9 ball though, but just as relevant to show that now only is fouling NOT unsporting, it is a perfectly intended part of the game. I also appreciate very much how the player being forced towards his 3rd foul is smiling and taking great enjoyment in a game well played.
that was pretty enjoyable to watch. 9 ball certainly is not a favourite game of mine, but one thing i do enjoy is taking advantage of the 3 foul rule, only i havent bothered to try and foul myself to then try and force my opponent to foul. i think there is a difference in 9 ball, where it does require skill and placement, even when committing foul shots, to then snooker your opponent. whereas in 8 ball us, just sinking your opponents ball, it just seems so lazy.
i think a big part of why i think this way in us8 is because a good game in my opinion is players making accurate shots, gaining good position for the following shot, and when they get in a bad position, battling to get out of it as best they can. purposely sinking someone elses ball, in my opinion, goes against this. on funkypool i cant help but picture my opponent sitting there thinking "ah crap i cant be bothered doing anything else, ill just sink his ball"
janmb said:
dame said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9y8Lv_A1s
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
Fantastic game! 9 ball though, but just as relevant to show that now only is fouling NOT unsporting, it is a perfectly intended part of the game. I also appreciate very much how the player being forced towards his 3rd foul is smiling and taking great enjoyment in a game well played.
that was pretty enjoyable to watch. 9 ball certainly is not a favourite game of mine, but one thing i do enjoy is taking advantage of the 3 foul rule, only i havent bothered to try and foul myself to then try and force my opponent to foul. i think there is a difference in 9 ball, where it does require skill and placement, even when committing foul shots, to then snooker your opponent. whereas in 8 ball us, just sinking your opponents ball, it just seems so lazy.
i think a big part of why i think this way in us8 is because a good game in my opinion is players making accurate shots, gaining good position for the following shot, and when they get in a bad position, battling to get out of it as best they can. purposely sinking someone elses ball, in my opinion, goes against this. on funkypool i cant help but picture my opponent sitting there thinking "ah crap i cant be bothered doing anything else, ill just sink his ball"
15 years ago [Link]
No point debating with you as long as you still base everything you do and say on the misguided, incorrect idea that fouling somehow means breaking rules. It is perfectly in line with the rules of 8-ball games to play a foul shot at any time you see fit - please, for the love of god and more importantly for your own good, try to come to terms with that fact.
And there is no definition of a deliberate foul simply because it cannot be proven. Again, there is a far stretch between what you, based on your own "common sense", can identify as deliberate or not, vs. what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm. The only way you could adopt such a term would be by having a human referee. And even then it would be pretty hopeless to have a rule which relied so exclusively on a referee's judgment with no real definition at all to base rulings on.
johnnyveggie said:
i disagree. a deliberate foul shows intent from the player commiting the foul to go against the games' design
No point debating with you as long as you still base everything you do and say on the misguided, incorrect idea that fouling somehow means breaking rules. It is perfectly in line with the rules of 8-ball games to play a foul shot at any time you see fit - please, for the love of god and more importantly for your own good, try to come to terms with that fact.
And there is no definition of a deliberate foul simply because it cannot be proven. Again, there is a far stretch between what you, based on your own "common sense", can identify as deliberate or not, vs. what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm. The only way you could adopt such a term would be by having a human referee. And even then it would be pretty hopeless to have a rule which relied so exclusively on a referee's judgment with no real definition at all to base rulings on.
15 years ago [Link]
Your problem. End of story.
johnnyveggie said:
exploiting a flaw in the us8ball's penalty system to gain an advantage i do see as underhanded and unsporting.
Your problem. End of story.
15 years ago [Link]
I am going to wade into this like a drunken daredevil wading into shark-infested waters, or a snowman wading into a geothermal spring, and ask this: what if the rules for a pool game or competition provide that players attempt to play a shot that is not a foul shot? In other words, they must not deliberately hit nothing or hit the wrong ball or pot the wrong ball or pot the white. Obviously that's unenforceable on FP, because as has been said, there would be a human referee needed. What are your opinions, guys, if such a rule existed in a pool hall, that each shot attempted must not have a foul planned? In other words, a deliberate foul shot is by itself a foul, and not by what's happened in it.
15 years ago [Link]
If such a rule had existed (lets be very clear on the fact that it does not), AND you could enforce it - with a defined penalty, then sure. But quite hypothetical since first of all no such rule would be in order in the first place, nor would it ever be enforceable here.
Another thing to keep in mind: Adding a rule that somehow prevented players from potting opponent's balls in 8 ball games would make the strategy of blocking pockets far too powerful. It's already fairly easy for players with a decent degree of power control to block pockets - and for the opponent to pot them can often be the only real move they can make if they want a realistic shot at winning the frame at all.
Currently this is very nicely balanced - the difficulty of playing a blocking ball matches the drawback you impose on your opponent spot on. Easy to do - moderate gain.
For the very same reason the 3-ball cushion rule for killer breaks were introduced - simply because tap-breaks opening a single ball which you then proceed to pot on your next shot was way too easy to do and was a 98% certain miss for the next player. Reward has to match effort.
clooneman said:
what if the rules for a pool game or competition provide that players attempt to play a shot that is not a foul shot?
If such a rule had existed (lets be very clear on the fact that it does not), AND you could enforce it - with a defined penalty, then sure. But quite hypothetical since first of all no such rule would be in order in the first place, nor would it ever be enforceable here.
Another thing to keep in mind: Adding a rule that somehow prevented players from potting opponent's balls in 8 ball games would make the strategy of blocking pockets far too powerful. It's already fairly easy for players with a decent degree of power control to block pockets - and for the opponent to pot them can often be the only real move they can make if they want a realistic shot at winning the frame at all.
Currently this is very nicely balanced - the difficulty of playing a blocking ball matches the drawback you impose on your opponent spot on. Easy to do - moderate gain.
For the very same reason the 3-ball cushion rule for killer breaks were introduced - simply because tap-breaks opening a single ball which you then proceed to pot on your next shot was way too easy to do and was a 98% certain miss for the next player. Reward has to match effort.
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15 years ago [Link]
Fantastic game! 9 ball though, but just as relevant to show that now only is fouling NOT unsporting, it is a perfectly intended part of the game. I also appreciate very much how the player being forced towards his 3rd foul is smiling and taking great enjoyment in a game well played.
that was pretty enjoyable to watch. 9 ball certainly is not a favourite game of mine, but one thing i do enjoy is taking advantage of the 3 foul rule, only i havent bothered to try and foul myself to then try and force my opponent to foul. i think there is a difference in 9 ball, where it does require skill and placement, even when committing foul shots, to then snooker your opponent. whereas in 8 ball us, just sinking your opponents ball, it just seems so lazy.
I really see very little difference here. Why do you think one requires skill and placement and the other one just lazy? At the end of the day, they ARE both deliberate fouls and both are to give a chance of winning the rack. I really do not see why you assume that in 8ball it's just pure lazyness.
johnnyveggie said:
janmb said:
dame said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9y8Lv_A1s
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
Fantastic game! 9 ball though, but just as relevant to show that now only is fouling NOT unsporting, it is a perfectly intended part of the game. I also appreciate very much how the player being forced towards his 3rd foul is smiling and taking great enjoyment in a game well played.
that was pretty enjoyable to watch. 9 ball certainly is not a favourite game of mine, but one thing i do enjoy is taking advantage of the 3 foul rule, only i havent bothered to try and foul myself to then try and force my opponent to foul. i think there is a difference in 9 ball, where it does require skill and placement, even when committing foul shots, to then snooker your opponent. whereas in 8 ball us, just sinking your opponents ball, it just seems so lazy.
I really see very little difference here. Why do you think one requires skill and placement and the other one just lazy? At the end of the day, they ARE both deliberate fouls and both are to give a chance of winning the rack. I really do not see why you assume that in 8ball it's just pure lazyness.
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15 years ago [Link]
No point debating with you as long as you still base everything you do and say on the misguided, incorrect idea that fouling somehow means breaking rules. It is perfectly in line with the rules of 8-ball games to play a foul shot at any time you see fit - please, for the love of god and more importantly for your own good, try to come to terms with that fact.
And there is no definition of a deliberate foul simply because it cannot be proven. Again, there is a far stretch between what you, based on your own "common sense", can identify as deliberate or not, vs. what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm.
lol oh dear... as im sure ive said, alright it's not technically breaking the rules, but it is going against the games design. being given a foul for hitting/sinking someone elses ball (in your case, on purpose) the way i see it is the games attempt at discouraging this sort of carry-on.
and as i said, no technically a deliberate foul cannot be proven by a computer algorithm, only a human referee could do this (which ofcourse is ridiculous on funkypool), but what i am saying is that alot of the time you can obviously see when someone purposely fouls like this. while there is no difference in consequence, it shows the player has the intent on purposely doing a foul shot, which goes against the games design, against what the game says is right and wrong - hence the foul given
janmb said:
No point debating with you as long as you still base everything you do and say on the misguided, incorrect idea that fouling somehow means breaking rules. It is perfectly in line with the rules of 8-ball games to play a foul shot at any time you see fit - please, for the love of god and more importantly for your own good, try to come to terms with that fact.
And there is no definition of a deliberate foul simply because it cannot be proven. Again, there is a far stretch between what you, based on your own "common sense", can identify as deliberate or not, vs. what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm.
lol oh dear... as im sure ive said, alright it's not technically breaking the rules, but it is going against the games design. being given a foul for hitting/sinking someone elses ball (in your case, on purpose) the way i see it is the games attempt at discouraging this sort of carry-on.
and as i said, no technically a deliberate foul cannot be proven by a computer algorithm, only a human referee could do this (which ofcourse is ridiculous on funkypool), but what i am saying is that alot of the time you can obviously see when someone purposely fouls like this. while there is no difference in consequence, it shows the player has the intent on purposely doing a foul shot, which goes against the games design, against what the game says is right and wrong - hence the foul given
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15 years ago [Link]
my thoughts on this are fairly predictable from what ive been saying in this thread lol,id really like to play such a pool game. as my good friend janmb points out, sure you can be disadvantaged by an a player with accurate force simply putting his or her balls right infront of the pockets.but personally i do enjoy having to work to find another solution. drawing the white up after another shot to nudge your ball near the covered pocket away a bit, or just working from its current position off the cushion.
i can see it would get very frustrating at times too, but i think this sort of game would promote more accurate position play to get one out of these sticky situations. more exciting gameplay too, regardless of the result.the kindof pool i really enjoy
clooneman said:
I am going to wade into this like a drunken daredevil wading into shark-infested waters, or a snowman wading into a geothermal spring, and ask this: what if the rules for a pool game or competition provide that players attempt to play a shot that is not a foul shot? In other words, they must not deliberately hit nothing or hit the wrong ball or pot the wrong ball or pot the white. Obviously that's unenforceable on FP, because as has been said, there would be a human referee needed. What are your opinions, guys, if such a rule existed in a pool hall, that each shot attempted must not have a foul planned? In other words, a deliberate foul shot is by itself a foul, and not by what's happened in it.
my thoughts on this are fairly predictable from what ive been saying in this thread lol,id really like to play such a pool game. as my good friend janmb points out, sure you can be disadvantaged by an a player with accurate force simply putting his or her balls right infront of the pockets.but personally i do enjoy having to work to find another solution. drawing the white up after another shot to nudge your ball near the covered pocket away a bit, or just working from its current position off the cushion.
i can see it would get very frustrating at times too, but i think this sort of game would promote more accurate position play to get one out of these sticky situations. more exciting gameplay too, regardless of the result.the kindof pool i really enjoy
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15 years ago [Link]
I really see very little difference here. Why do you think one requires skill and placement and the other one just lazy? At the end of the day, they ARE both deliberate fouls and both are to give a chance of winning the rack. I really do not see why you assume that in 8ball it's just pure lazyness.
mainly because anyone can just sink someone elses ball purposely if its set up right infront of a pocket, and what janmb says "reward has to match effort", where's the effort in sinking someone elses perfectly set up ball? in 9ball even to purposely foul, with the amount of room on the table (depending on how the balls are spread), it still takes a fair degree of skill and cunning to execute a good snooker, even if you do foul.
dame said:
I really see very little difference here. Why do you think one requires skill and placement and the other one just lazy? At the end of the day, they ARE both deliberate fouls and both are to give a chance of winning the rack. I really do not see why you assume that in 8ball it's just pure lazyness.
mainly because anyone can just sink someone elses ball purposely if its set up right infront of a pocket, and what janmb says "reward has to match effort", where's the effort in sinking someone elses perfectly set up ball? in 9ball even to purposely foul, with the amount of room on the table (depending on how the balls are spread), it still takes a fair degree of skill and cunning to execute a good snooker, even if you do foul.
15 years ago [Link]
The game's design and the rules are one and the same thing. You can't go against the design as long as you abide by the rules.
There has never been any intention in 8-ball games that players should always strive to play a non-foul shot as long as they can. If there had been, there would have been rules and associated penalties in place for that.
johnnyveggie said:
lol oh dear... as im sure ive said, alright it's not technically breaking the rules, but it is going against the games design.
The game's design and the rules are one and the same thing. You can't go against the design as long as you abide by the rules.
There has never been any intention in 8-ball games that players should always strive to play a non-foul shot as long as they can. If there had been, there would have been rules and associated penalties in place for that.
15 years ago [Link]
in the pool league i play in, if you fould deliberately, the game is over and you forfeit that frame.....
however, this is a computer game which can't tell the difference between a deliberate/accidental foul.
when i first joined funky (on snooker) it really used to annoy me people fouling deliberately - now - i try not to give them the chance....
i also must admit - some of the deliberate fouls played against me by more experienced players have been very tactically thought out - cheating .......no, unsporting........i used to think so, funky.....yes
however, this is a computer game which can't tell the difference between a deliberate/accidental foul.
when i first joined funky (on snooker) it really used to annoy me people fouling deliberately - now - i try not to give them the chance....
i also must admit - some of the deliberate fouls played against me by more experienced players have been very tactically thought out - cheating .......no, unsporting........i used to think so, funky.....yes
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15 years ago [Link]
I really see very little difference here. Why do you think one requires skill and placement and the other one just lazy? At the end of the day, they ARE both deliberate fouls and both are to give a chance of winning the rack. I really do not see why you assume that in 8ball it's just pure lazyness.
mainly because anyone can just sink someone elses ball purposely if its set up right infront of a pocket, and what janmb says "reward has to match effort", where's the effort in sinking someone elses perfectly set up ball? in 9ball even to purposely foul, with the amount of room on the table (depending on how the balls are spread), it still takes a fair degree of skill and cunning to execute a good snooker, even if you do foul.
The fact of the matter is though, the skill part isn't the point of it at all. They both are fouls and both are done to give you a better chance of winning. So, personally, I can't see why the 2 are distinguished from each other.
johnnyveggie said:
dame said:
I really see very little difference here. Why do you think one requires skill and placement and the other one just lazy? At the end of the day, they ARE both deliberate fouls and both are to give a chance of winning the rack. I really do not see why you assume that in 8ball it's just pure lazyness.
mainly because anyone can just sink someone elses ball purposely if its set up right infront of a pocket, and what janmb says "reward has to match effort", where's the effort in sinking someone elses perfectly set up ball? in 9ball even to purposely foul, with the amount of room on the table (depending on how the balls are spread), it still takes a fair degree of skill and cunning to execute a good snooker, even if you do foul.
The fact of the matter is though, the skill part isn't the point of it at all. They both are fouls and both are done to give you a better chance of winning. So, personally, I can't see why the 2 are distinguished from each other.
15 years ago [Link]
The 2009 official WPA rules of real life 8 Ball Pool say that playing a deliberate foul is covered by the rule of unsportsmanlike conduct and can mean forfeiting the frame.
The use of the deliberate foul on Funkypool takes advantage of the system's inability to detect what's deliberate and what's not. Technically that could be seen as unsporting, but it's not cheating because it can't be outlawed here.
The real issue should be, as mentioned above, how to prevent a deliberate foul providing an advantage to the person playing it.
Stealing part of the UK game's punishment, the option of being allowed to play or pot any ball on the table following a foul in US 8 Ball (but without getting 2 shots) would mean that a deliberate fouler generally wouldn't gain an advantage. His opponent could just clear the covered pocket and carry on without punishment.
Edited at 19:20 Wed 13/01/10 (GMT)
The use of the deliberate foul on Funkypool takes advantage of the system's inability to detect what's deliberate and what's not. Technically that could be seen as unsporting, but it's not cheating because it can't be outlawed here.
The real issue should be, as mentioned above, how to prevent a deliberate foul providing an advantage to the person playing it.
Stealing part of the UK game's punishment, the option of being allowed to play or pot any ball on the table following a foul in US 8 Ball (but without getting 2 shots) would mean that a deliberate fouler generally wouldn't gain an advantage. His opponent could just clear the covered pocket and carry on without punishment.
Edited at 19:20 Wed 13/01/10 (GMT)
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query; a cheat list on your profile?
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