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00:41 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Simply dead wrong.
A foul has no moral or legal substance. All it is, is a definition of something that incurs an advantage for your opponent. If you at any time find it worth while to do so, you are most welcome to. There is nothing improper or immoral in fouling - deliberately or not.
Another aspect to keep in mind: There is no way for the game, nor people, to reliably tell a deliberate foul from a mistake. So even if you wanted to, there is no way to separate between the two in a reliable and fair manner.
johnnyveggie said:
what i am saying is that purposely fouling is cheating
Simply dead wrong.
A foul has no moral or legal substance. All it is, is a definition of something that incurs an advantage for your opponent. If you at any time find it worth while to do so, you are most welcome to. There is nothing improper or immoral in fouling - deliberately or not.
Another aspect to keep in mind: There is no way for the game, nor people, to reliably tell a deliberate foul from a mistake. So even if you wanted to, there is no way to separate between the two in a reliable and fair manner.
00:52 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
The problem is that a foul doesn't mean breaking rules, deliberately or not.
There are in all pool games a set of shots that allows you to keep playing, and all other shots are called fouls and usually means giving the table to your opponent. ALL shots are available to you and perfectly legal to play according to the rules. Playing a foul has a defined consequence, and if you find it worthwhile to play one deliberately, that's perfectly fine, perfectly moral and something you should always do.
If you want to live in a dream world, playing by a more confined set of rules than everyone else that's obviously your choice, but don't go thinking you being sporting or somehow better because of it.
johnnyveggie said:
my point again briefly and as simple as you can get;
fouling is against the rules, thats why the shot is called a foul, because the person has gone against the rules. purposely going against the rules is cheating. that is the definition of cheating.
fouling is against the rules, thats why the shot is called a foul, because the person has gone against the rules. purposely going against the rules is cheating. that is the definition of cheating.
The problem is that a foul doesn't mean breaking rules, deliberately or not.
There are in all pool games a set of shots that allows you to keep playing, and all other shots are called fouls and usually means giving the table to your opponent. ALL shots are available to you and perfectly legal to play according to the rules. Playing a foul has a defined consequence, and if you find it worthwhile to play one deliberately, that's perfectly fine, perfectly moral and something you should always do.
If you want to live in a dream world, playing by a more confined set of rules than everyone else that's obviously your choice, but don't go thinking you being sporting or somehow better because of it.
00:55 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
johnnyveggie said:
mmm yeah i agree with most of that clooneman. my gripe really is that i think its pretty unsporting of people to purposely do that (in us 8 ball), knowing that even incurring a penalty, can be much more of an advantage for the player commiting the foul on purpose.
for example; if the player that commits the foul covers the pocket completely, and their opposition has 1 or 2 balls very close to that pocket, their options may only be to go off the cushion for another pocket, or to commit a foul back and to purposely sink the opponents ball. now, if the opponent (who committed the foul originally) only has 1 ball remaining and the black is free, then that should be the game when theyre given a free ball.
its a messy situation to explain, but i think most of you get what i mean. and thats what i see as unfair, underhanded, and i'd even go so far as to say "cheating" - as its going against the rules to leave yourself in a better position.
this isnt the case in uk 8 due to the carry rule and being able to sink your opponents ball on the first hit - so it prevents people from purposely fouling and having the advantage by then covering the pocket for themselves as a result of their own foul
/end slight rant for now hehe
for example; if the player that commits the foul covers the pocket completely, and their opposition has 1 or 2 balls very close to that pocket, their options may only be to go off the cushion for another pocket, or to commit a foul back and to purposely sink the opponents ball. now, if the opponent (who committed the foul originally) only has 1 ball remaining and the black is free, then that should be the game when theyre given a free ball.
its a messy situation to explain, but i think most of you get what i mean. and thats what i see as unfair, underhanded, and i'd even go so far as to say "cheating" - as its going against the rules to leave yourself in a better position.
this isnt the case in uk 8 due to the carry rule and being able to sink your opponents ball on the first hit - so it prevents people from purposely fouling and having the advantage by then covering the pocket for themselves as a result of their own foul
/end slight rant for now hehe
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
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00:57 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
People really need to lose the ridiculous idea that doing what you can within the rules of the game is somehow unsporting.
you seem to miss my point again, so i put it in bold for you. it is not within the rules to foul, thats why it is called a foul, and the player is penalised. to foul on purpose because it benefits you (refer to the scenario i explained above if youre unaware of what i mean) is unsporting.
The only thing unsporting here are people complaining when faced with opponents who apply more and better tactics than themselves.
better tactics? thats laughable. for argument sake; if we were to have a boxing match and i low blowed you, and i lost a few points for that round, but the fight continued, and you were in far worse shape now because of that shot, would they be better tactics? that may sound extreme, but it is one in the same. going against the rules to ultimately have the advantage in the end.
instead of complaining, i made this thread to find out if it was acceptable to make a list of people who use these "tactics", not so much to complain. im merely explaining my position on these "tactics", as you all are too
janmb said:
People really need to lose the ridiculous idea that doing what you can within the rules of the game is somehow unsporting.
you seem to miss my point again, so i put it in bold for you. it is not within the rules to foul, thats why it is called a foul, and the player is penalised. to foul on purpose because it benefits you (refer to the scenario i explained above if youre unaware of what i mean) is unsporting.
janmb said:
The only thing unsporting here are people complaining when faced with opponents who apply more and better tactics than themselves.
better tactics? thats laughable. for argument sake; if we were to have a boxing match and i low blowed you, and i lost a few points for that round, but the fight continued, and you were in far worse shape now because of that shot, would they be better tactics? that may sound extreme, but it is one in the same. going against the rules to ultimately have the advantage in the end.
instead of complaining, i made this thread to find out if it was acceptable to make a list of people who use these "tactics", not so much to complain. im merely explaining my position on these "tactics", as you all are too
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01:03 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
why should one conduct themselves any different online to "real life"? its really a question of if youre comfortable or not with playing dishonestly i think.
nah no sour grapes, ill gladly hang my head in defeat if its a fair and skilled game. i just dont agree with purposely fouling/breaking rules to be in a better position (because as ive stated numerous times, fouling on purpose ofcourse is going against the rules, it is as simple as that). online or off
chaos_ said:
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
why should one conduct themselves any different online to "real life"? its really a question of if youre comfortable or not with playing dishonestly i think.
nah no sour grapes, ill gladly hang my head in defeat if its a fair and skilled game. i just dont agree with purposely fouling/breaking rules to be in a better position (because as ive stated numerous times, fouling on purpose ofcourse is going against the rules, it is as simple as that). online or off
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01:16 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Simply dead wrong.
A foul has no moral or legal substance. All it is, is a definition of something that incurs an advantage for your opponent. If you at any time find it worth while to do so, you are most welcome to. There is nothing improper or immoral in fouling - deliberately or not.
Another aspect to keep in mind: There is no way for the game, nor people, to reliably tell a deliberate foul from a mistake. So even if you wanted to, there is no way to separate between the two in a reliable and fair manner.
its rather naive to actually think you cant tell when some fouls are done on purpose, because the fact of the matter is that you can.
in all pool games you are given clear guidelines as to what you are allowed to do, and what you are not allowed to do. like pretty much all games, they can be manipulated. to purposely go against the games ultimate design, what the game says is right and wrong (a foul being what is wrong), especially on purpose, is going against the rules. youre obviously of the school of thought where you can do whatever the online game will allow you to do, whether its a foul or not, i obviously do not agree with this way of playing.
im an honest and fair person in all of my endeavours, and i dont think im living in a dream world being this way. as i said though, im an idealist. not everyone is
janmb said:
johnnyveggie said:
what i am saying is that purposely fouling is cheating
Simply dead wrong.
A foul has no moral or legal substance. All it is, is a definition of something that incurs an advantage for your opponent. If you at any time find it worth while to do so, you are most welcome to. There is nothing improper or immoral in fouling - deliberately or not.
Another aspect to keep in mind: There is no way for the game, nor people, to reliably tell a deliberate foul from a mistake. So even if you wanted to, there is no way to separate between the two in a reliable and fair manner.
its rather naive to actually think you cant tell when some fouls are done on purpose, because the fact of the matter is that you can.
in all pool games you are given clear guidelines as to what you are allowed to do, and what you are not allowed to do. like pretty much all games, they can be manipulated. to purposely go against the games ultimate design, what the game says is right and wrong (a foul being what is wrong), especially on purpose, is going against the rules. youre obviously of the school of thought where you can do whatever the online game will allow you to do, whether its a foul or not, i obviously do not agree with this way of playing.
im an honest and fair person in all of my endeavours, and i dont think im living in a dream world being this way. as i said though, im an idealist. not everyone is
01:23 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
why should one conduct themselves any different online to "real life"?
Ummm because this is an online game,and you can !! lol
If it was against the rules ,it wouldn't be happening on here ,simple really
johnnyveggie said:
chaos_ said:
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
why should one conduct themselves any different online to "real life"?
Ummm because this is an online game,and you can !! lol
If it was against the rules ,it wouldn't be happening on here ,simple really
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01:23 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Playing a foul has a defined consequence, and if you find it worthwhile to play one deliberately, that's perfectly fine, perfectly moral and something you should always do.
in the case that ive described, the consequence is not a consequence at all compared to the disadvantage youve put your opponent at. and what i am saying is that anyone can play like this sure, but it takes away alot of the skill from the game, of making the most of your shots. instead it promotes fouling against one another with these pathetic shots. excluding the moral argument, it just makes for boring games when players keep fouling against one another instead of putting their skill and ability to the test by trying to get out of a tricky predicament
janmb said:
Playing a foul has a defined consequence, and if you find it worthwhile to play one deliberately, that's perfectly fine, perfectly moral and something you should always do.
in the case that ive described, the consequence is not a consequence at all compared to the disadvantage youve put your opponent at. and what i am saying is that anyone can play like this sure, but it takes away alot of the skill from the game, of making the most of your shots. instead it promotes fouling against one another with these pathetic shots. excluding the moral argument, it just makes for boring games when players keep fouling against one another instead of putting their skill and ability to the test by trying to get out of a tricky predicament
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01:25 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
why should one conduct themselves any different online to "real life"?
Ummm because this is an online game,and you can !! lol
If it was against the rules ,it wouldn't be happening on here ,simple really
yeah i just see that as a cop out eh.
oh and it would and does occur, as clooneman said, there's no way for the game to be able to detect what is a deliberate foul and what is not
chaos_ said:
johnnyveggie said:
chaos_ said:
Jonny this is funky pool !!! ,not real life pool,and nowhere in the rules does it say this tactic cant be used, to call it cheating is over the top in my opinion....Maybe a case of sour grapes i think ?
why should one conduct themselves any different online to "real life"?
Ummm because this is an online game,and you can !! lol
If it was against the rules ,it wouldn't be happening on here ,simple really
yeah i just see that as a cop out eh.
oh and it would and does occur, as clooneman said, there's no way for the game to be able to detect what is a deliberate foul and what is not
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01:33 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
at the end of the day this is funkypool and not club and pub rules pool, i pot opponants ball if its blocking a pocket but only if it gives me a advantage, i cant see any problem with it at all
02:00 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
As your question was answered in the second post of this thread so there's not much need to carry on.
Think this topic requires capping as we will be going over and over the same thing time and time again.
At the end of the day, whether or not its personal principles, the same rules apply to everyone. Whether or not it is used rightly or wrongly to advantage your gameplan, that is an individual choice!
Cap it!!
johnnyveggie said:
anyhow, my question was answered in the second post of this thread so there's not much need to carry on with this jibber jabber now. each is free to believe what they wish
dont let me stop the debating if you wanna say your bit though. personally i cant really be arsed now, ive said my bit
Edited at 03:41 Mon 11/01/10 (GMT)
dont let me stop the debating if you wanna say your bit though. personally i cant really be arsed now, ive said my bit
Edited at 03:41 Mon 11/01/10 (GMT)
As your question was answered in the second post of this thread so there's not much need to carry on.
Think this topic requires capping as we will be going over and over the same thing time and time again.
At the end of the day, whether or not its personal principles, the same rules apply to everyone. Whether or not it is used rightly or wrongly to advantage your gameplan, that is an individual choice!
Cap it!!
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02:48 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
im just replying to those who reply to me, thats all.
but fair enough, my question was answered at the beginning. cant help but enjoy a debate now and then.
next topics of debate; is there a god? fold or scrunch? who would win in a fight out of stephen hawkings and chuck norris?
but fair enough, my question was answered at the beginning. cant help but enjoy a debate now and then.
next topics of debate; is there a god? fold or scrunch? who would win in a fight out of stephen hawkings and chuck norris?
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11:13 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9y8Lv_A1s
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
Edited to show link.
Edited at 17:33 Mon 11/01/10 (GMT)
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
Edited to show link.
Edited at 17:33 Mon 11/01/10 (GMT)
11:25 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
For the last time: Yes it is!
Fouling, and the consequences, are part of the legal confines of the game - fouling is not breaking rules. The rules do not require you to play a non-foul shot.
johnnyveggie said:
you seem to miss my point again, so i put it in bold for you. it is not within the rules to foul,
For the last time: Yes it is!
Fouling, and the consequences, are part of the legal confines of the game - fouling is not breaking rules. The rules do not require you to play a non-foul shot.
11:27 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
There is a massive difference between what YOU think you know, vs what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm.
And in either case it is completely irrelevant since fouling is a perfectly legitimate action in the first place.
johnnyveggie said:
its rather naive to actually think you cant tell when some fouls are done on purpose, because the fact of the matter is that you can.
There is a massive difference between what YOU think you know, vs what can be reliably determined by a computer algorithm.
And in either case it is completely irrelevant since fouling is a perfectly legitimate action in the first place.
11:29 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
The difference is that a low blow is a rule violation, while a deliberate foul in pool or snooker is not. In fact, that is why there is no such thing as a deliberate foul vs. an accidental one. They are one and the same thing, with a common consequence.
johnnyveggie said:
better tactics? thats laughable. for argument sake; if we were to have a boxing match and i low blowed you, and i lost a few points for that round, but the fight continued, and you were in far worse shape now because of that shot, would they be better tactics?
The difference is that a low blow is a rule violation, while a deliberate foul in pool or snooker is not. In fact, that is why there is no such thing as a deliberate foul vs. an accidental one. They are one and the same thing, with a common consequence.
11:33 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Which is why any skilled player at that point will, and should, choose to foul.
In fact, you'd be surprised to learn how many players who fail to realize the foul is the proper tactic when having a pocket blocked. Most pros will know to pot it sooner than later, but most newbies will put it off until it loses them the game for certain.
Not going to waste more time on you - we get these ridiculous chivalric discussions now and then - so the final word here is that fouling does not mean you break any rules. Whether you like it or not.
johnnyveggie said:
the consequence is not a consequence at all compared to the disadvantage youve put your opponent at
Which is why any skilled player at that point will, and should, choose to foul.
johnnyveggie said:
. and what i am saying is that anyone can play like this sure, but it takes away alot of the skill from the game
In fact, you'd be surprised to learn how many players who fail to realize the foul is the proper tactic when having a pocket blocked. Most pros will know to pot it sooner than later, but most newbies will put it off until it loses them the game for certain.
Not going to waste more time on you - we get these ridiculous chivalric discussions now and then - so the final word here is that fouling does not mean you break any rules. Whether you like it or not.
11:40 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Fantastic game! 9 ball though, but just as relevant to show that now only is fouling NOT unsporting, it is a perfectly intended part of the game. I also appreciate very much how the player being forced towards his 3rd foul is smiling and taking great enjoyment in a game well played.
dame said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9y8Lv_A1s
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
I think you'll find it happens off the game aswell. People do it to their advantage to try and win the game by fouling. Just one of them things.
Fantastic game! 9 ball though, but just as relevant to show that now only is fouling NOT unsporting, it is a perfectly intended part of the game. I also appreciate very much how the player being forced towards his 3rd foul is smiling and taking great enjoyment in a game well played.
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11:58 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
*was interested in this*
Can someone summarise the essays?
Can someone summarise the essays?
12:01 Mon 11 Jan 10 (GMT) [Link]
Fouls
The following are fouls and will lead to the opponent getting a cue ball in hand (This means that the player can place the cue ball anywhere on the table):
* Pocketing the cue ball
* Pocketing an opponents ball
* Hitting the 8 ball or an opponents ball before hitting their own ball
* Not hitting the rail after contact with their own ball (unless they pocket a ball)
Nowhere does it say fouls are cheating, think of it like football
If one player fouls another, it is an illegal move and he is punished BUT it is not deemed as cheating (unless its serious)
So really the only way to 'cheat' in pool would be to do something like taking a shot when its not your shot or something else which is IMPOSSIBLE on funkypool
The following are fouls and will lead to the opponent getting a cue ball in hand (This means that the player can place the cue ball anywhere on the table):
* Pocketing the cue ball
* Pocketing an opponents ball
* Hitting the 8 ball or an opponents ball before hitting their own ball
* Not hitting the rail after contact with their own ball (unless they pocket a ball)
Nowhere does it say fouls are cheating, think of it like football
If one player fouls another, it is an illegal move and he is punished BUT it is not deemed as cheating (unless its serious)
So really the only way to 'cheat' in pool would be to do something like taking a shot when its not your shot or something else which is IMPOSSIBLE on funkypool
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query; a cheat list on your profile?
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